Change in Adhesive on T Models

Bronco
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:43 am
Location: Evergreen, CO

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3923Post Bronco
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:14 pm

Based on another thread regarding this topic on a different forum, it sounds like the change happened sometime during builds that started in mid-to-late 2020.

Bluesandswing
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3924Post Bluesandswing
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:20 pm

I try not to get too wrapped up in stuff like this but I have to say.....this irritates me a bit. When the T series was introduced it was marketed as reverting back to some traditional building techniques.....thin finishes, lighter builds and animal protein glue. All of these things went together to make the Traditional line what it is. Its also worth noting that these more traditional building techniques makes the guitar more expensive but to many of us, the extra charge was understandable and worth it. I think its wrong for Collings to discontinue what they originally marketed as an important feature of the T builds without (to my knowledge) any announcement of what they were doing. Did they reduce the price of the T series then because of the fact that going back to Titebond makes the build easier/faster and therefore less expensive? To my knowledge not. I do not know if the use of protein based glues makes for a better guitar or not.....many feel that it does and Collings went so far as to say that they thought it did as well and began using it for Traditional builds and (appropriately) charging more for those guitars because of the difficulty of working with the glue as well as other features. Now, without notice, they stop using it although to my knowledge have not reduced the price of the T guitars commensurately. Again, I don't know if protein glues is important or not and I'd be proud to own any Collings T model regardless of what glue its held together with. That said I feel like its wrong of them to market the glues as being important, charge more for using it (as part of a package of other build changes), but then stop using it without notice, continue to charge the price associated with using it...and then tell us after we find out about it that well....it doesn't really matter anyway. I feel like the real issue here is that as a result of the pandemic, guitar orders have exploded and in an attempt to speed production, they are willing to begin cutting corners. Makes me wonder what other corners might be cut?

pto
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:40 am

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3926Post pto
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:11 am

although fish glue - i assume from Norland - has loads of characteristics similar to hot-hide glue, which are preferable to the glues predominately used in instrument making, it has a few disadvantages: number one is it's stability relative to hot-hide glue in high-humidity environments. for me, that would make it a warranty concern (although i've never heard of a problem on the Collings fora). as far as the cost of using it in the shop, i don't know how much more time it takes than the modern traditional glues, if any, but it apparently is significantly easier to use that hot-hide glue; much longer open-life, application temperature requirements, and all that. i do know that hot-hide glue contributes significantly to the cost of a guitar a SCGC, and they typically only use it on the tops.

in years long preceding Bill's passing (and the traditionals' birth), i got the feeling from management that they sometimes scratched their heads on how they could make money, given the extra mile and all the directions Bill always wanted to go; they referred to him as a perennial 18-year old.:) so the ukes, the cases, fish glue, D-45s and perhaps even varnish had their time. this market is incredibly competitive and Collings and Santa Cruz, say, just don't pull people off the street to man a station. i love the traditionals, although i've found that the original collings configuration (maybe with a varnish finish) is my choice in the end. if i were going to purchase another traditional, it would be the cj45: a real winner there, i think. and i'd want it with "regular glue," (unless they opted for hot-hide as opposed to fish):) all my opinions only! love to hear from the experts on the forum, and i know there is at least one!:)
Last edited by pto on Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Frank Sanns
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:38 pm
Real Name: Frank Sanns
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3927Post Frank Sanns
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:35 am

There is a difference using hide glue. Is the difference enough for 99% of the people to hear it? Is the difference more than the type wood used in the top of the guitar? The back and sides? The strings ? The saddle material? The tuners? The logo on the headstock?

It becomes a question of how much the hide glue affects the sound and feeling of vibrations of the guitar. Is hide glue a significant enough factor to continue to build with it? Its effect is much less than the most important factors like dimensions, woods and bracing. It is probably more than tuners but less than strings. It may be more on the order of shaving a few thousands of an inch off of the saddle. To some, they will notice but most may not.

I would prefer to have all of the stars lined up on an instrument will all of the factors working the best together. In the end, if two guitars were supposedly identical but one with hide glue and one with Titebond, I would still pick the one that sounded better and not sweat the small details.

adirondack&spruce
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:06 am
Real Name: Mike

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3928Post adirondack&spruce
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:45 am

So looks like there is a small window of T models(early 2020's) that only have the new neck construction(2020 change) and AP glue as well.

pto
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:40 am

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3931Post pto
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:40 pm

i had one of those - sold it almost immediately. :)

adirondack&spruce
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:06 am
Real Name: Mike

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3932Post adirondack&spruce
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:53 pm

May I ask why you sold it?

Seems like now we have a few different flavors in the T guitars in regards to these potential combinations spanning from 2019 to 2021:

Old neck construction
New neck construction
Satin finish
Gloss finish
Fish glue
Titebond

Which do you guys prefer?

Bronco
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:43 am
Location: Evergreen, CO

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3933Post Bronco
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:23 am

I’ve got an early 2020 D1AT in the satin finish. I guess it has the AP glue and new neck construction. Awesome guitar. I’ve also got a 2018 Parlor 1AT which is a gloss finish, AP glue, and the old neck construction. Also an awesome guitar. I’ve played a bunch of Traditionals since they came out and I’ve found every one of them to be great.

Tempotantrum
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:44 am
Real Name: David Pettorini

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3934Post Tempotantrum
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:59 am

I have an April 2020 D1ATS. I assumed it had AP glue, but maybe not? Regardless - this is the best Dread I have owned, and I have owned many. To an earlier point - I think the marketing material now no longer references AP glue in the build details (at least on the Collings website), so one shouldn't feel that they have been misled unless the specific instrument they purchased indicated is was built using AP glue. I asked for a build spec sheet for my guitar as I was buying a traditional case directly from Collings after buying the D1ATS from a dealer. The spec sheet does not specify the type of glue used, and so if I found out it was built with titebond - I wouldn't feel misled. I am curious about the exact cutover date though.

adirondack&spruce
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:06 am
Real Name: Mike

Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models

Post: # 3935Post adirondack&spruce
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:03 am

I agree too, Every Traditonal I've had all have been stellar, regardless of finish, glue, neck construction.

I'm very fond of the new Satin finish and new neck construction, I got a few 2020 T's in that configuration.
I bought a used D2HATS and it turned out be one that is on Collings Custom Gallery page. Score!! It's a monster.

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