Change in Adhesive on T Models
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
Great discussion. I also have a D1AT Satin and learned from Collings that the move away from Animal Protein Glue was in January 2020.
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
"May I ask why you sold it?"
i didn't find it sounding any different than a D1A "regular." it was remarkably similar, in fact, in contrast to my experience with other T-to-standard comparisons. still great, mind you, but nothing special to me. it was previously-owned, and that for only 4 months. my parlor T and Om T were both fabulous.
i didn't find it sounding any different than a D1A "regular." it was remarkably similar, in fact, in contrast to my experience with other T-to-standard comparisons. still great, mind you, but nothing special to me. it was previously-owned, and that for only 4 months. my parlor T and Om T were both fabulous.
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
Collings has not built with hot hide glue. First it was fish glue on the Waterloo line and then it was 'protein glue' on Traditionals. All cold glues. I think it would be important information to keep straight.adirondack&spruce wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:13 pm Now it begins:
a desire for used Pre-2020 Hide Glue Traditonals...
All my Traditonals are hide glue, and I'm not at all disappointed with that.
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adirondack&spruce
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- Real Name: Mike
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
Thanks for pointing that out. 
Should of said AP glue, instead of HG. Post has been edited. Thanks
Should of said AP glue, instead of HG. Post has been edited. Thanks
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Frank Sanns
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- Real Name: Frank Sanns
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Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
As one of the resident chemists here, I will complicate the matters a little more.
When talking about adhesives or other polymers, it is quite common to group them into categories. Animal protein glues are a class of compounds just like varnishes or urethanes are. Having a varnish finish offers little description of the actual properties of the material. A varnish can be hard or soft. Flexible or brittle. Transparent or translucent or even opaque. Still, all varnishes have some similar qualities when compared to other materials like urethanes. Things like solvent resistance, water resistance, film builds, and many other attributes ARE different between a varnish and a urethane generally speaking.
When one talks about a fish glue or a horse glue or any of the other animal glues, they are talking generally. The animal glues are just a pinch like a nylon. In contrast a product like Titebond is not very nylon like at all. It is much more like vinyl.
Vinyls are great for water resistance for example. They can be flexible like an inflatable swimming pool raft or they can be rigid like PVC water pipes. Nylon (aliphatic) on the other hand is not great around water and often swells and loses some of its properties.
To show the variability in these categories, Kevlar and Nomex are both nylon (aromatic). They are pretty much inert against water and fire alike. They are the substances of bullet proof vests and fire proof clothing.
The point is that animal glues have variability within them but they are quite different from a polyvinyl (acetate) glue like Titebond 1.
I have done tests and there is one very big difference between the two glues. It comes to the interface and the film forming properties of the two glues. Animal proteins are the winners but is it enough to hear and feel? It is there but it is not one of big contributors of tone production.
I hope I am not starting a controversy here or getting people to demand animal glues or nothing. Like previously said, in most builds it is more of a minor contributor than the skill in positioning and scalloping the braces.
When talking about adhesives or other polymers, it is quite common to group them into categories. Animal protein glues are a class of compounds just like varnishes or urethanes are. Having a varnish finish offers little description of the actual properties of the material. A varnish can be hard or soft. Flexible or brittle. Transparent or translucent or even opaque. Still, all varnishes have some similar qualities when compared to other materials like urethanes. Things like solvent resistance, water resistance, film builds, and many other attributes ARE different between a varnish and a urethane generally speaking.
When one talks about a fish glue or a horse glue or any of the other animal glues, they are talking generally. The animal glues are just a pinch like a nylon. In contrast a product like Titebond is not very nylon like at all. It is much more like vinyl.
Vinyls are great for water resistance for example. They can be flexible like an inflatable swimming pool raft or they can be rigid like PVC water pipes. Nylon (aliphatic) on the other hand is not great around water and often swells and loses some of its properties.
To show the variability in these categories, Kevlar and Nomex are both nylon (aromatic). They are pretty much inert against water and fire alike. They are the substances of bullet proof vests and fire proof clothing.
The point is that animal glues have variability within them but they are quite different from a polyvinyl (acetate) glue like Titebond 1.
I have done tests and there is one very big difference between the two glues. It comes to the interface and the film forming properties of the two glues. Animal proteins are the winners but is it enough to hear and feel? It is there but it is not one of big contributors of tone production.
I hope I am not starting a controversy here or getting people to demand animal glues or nothing. Like previously said, in most builds it is more of a minor contributor than the skill in positioning and scalloping the braces.
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
the expert i was referring to earlier in the thread!:)As one of the resident chemists here
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
Well, shoot, I'll throw my hat into this ring. No less an authority than the legendary luthier John Greven maintains that the entire hide glue "controversy" in pure hooey. I'm sure if you do a google search you can track down his article on the subject. He thinks there's zero difference in sound production or structural stability between the various animal glues and the various aliphatic resin glues. My only personal point of reference is that the best guitars I've ever played have been built with aliphatic resin glues, probably titebond or one of its various cousins. I really don't think that, in a blind test, one could differentiate guitars made with either of the two glues. Just too many other factors involved in the way a guitar makes sound. My Collings D1TS is a crazy good guitar. I love it and I think it will be as good as a couple of my luthier-builds, in 20 years or so. The age of a guitar, how its settled and acclimated and matured, I think is a much more important factor in its tone than whether it was made with animal glue or aliphatic resin glue.
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
i can never tell the difference, tone-wise. or at least i wouldn't know it even if i heard it. regarding the experts, for every "no less an authority than..." there's likely a "no less an authority than..." who has found the opposite. what Richard Feynman called, "the tyranny of experts.":) he put it another way, too: "...The experts who are leading you may be wrong." i enjoy reading the arguments; in the end, alas, i can't tell the difference.
Re: Change in Adhesive on T Models
I too can not tell the difference. I wonder if any of these "experts" have ever conducted a true blind test where the listener had no idea which guitar they were listening to?
In orchestra auditions the musicians are often behind a curtain so that the listener can only hear the music and not see who is playing. In our case you could have a skilled guitarist sit behind a curtain and play a number of instruments, some assembled with animal glue some with Tite Bond. Then after all the instruments were played see if the listener(s) can tell which was which. To make the test truly authentic the guitarist should not be made aware of which was which too.
In orchestra auditions the musicians are often behind a curtain so that the listener can only hear the music and not see who is playing. In our case you could have a skilled guitarist sit behind a curtain and play a number of instruments, some assembled with animal glue some with Tite Bond. Then after all the instruments were played see if the listener(s) can tell which was which. To make the test truly authentic the guitarist should not be made aware of which was which too.
Bob